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9月1日Alistair Cockburn在UMLChina聊天实录

发表于2001/9/2 22:06:00  828人阅读

第八期嘉宾聊天

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北京时间2001年9月1日(星期六)10:00-12:00。

嘉宾:Alistair Cockburn。世界顶级OO专家,全球软件业最杰出的技术与书籍的奖项 Jolt Productivity Award的获奖书籍“Writing Effective Use Cases”的作者,此书草稿可在此下载:http://www.umlforum.com/zippdf/writingeffectiveucs.zip。著有的著名书籍文章还有:
“Surviving Object-Oriented Projects”
“Software Development as a Cooperative Game”
“Structuring Use Case with Goals”

交流重点:OO,项目管理。


umlchina对acockburn说: hi, professor, so early! I have not had my breakfast yet!(09:09)

acockburn对大家说: We said 19:00, and it is 19:00 here in Salt Lake City - is it really only 9:00 there?(09:12)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: Glad to see you, Mr. Acockburn(09:12)

acockburn对大家说: If you want, I have a lot of work to do - I can go and do work for another hour and come back then(09:13)

xkfy对大家说: hi,professor,it's glad to meet you(09:13)

umlchina对acockburn说: Yes, please be busy with your work first and come back 30 mins later?(09:14)

acockburn对umlchina说: Ok. I have only 2 hours I can be here. So I shall come back in 30 minutes and be here for 2 hours then. Is that OK?(09:15)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: It's 9 o'clock morning now in China(09:15)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: We will wait you until 10:00(09:15)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Ah, then we did our math wrong - we though 1900 here would be 1000 there.(09:15)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: OK. I shall be back at 10:00 your time. bye...(09:16)

xkfy对acockburn说: wait for you(09:17)

qingzuozhou对umlchina说: you are the president here, you should prepare some questions to ask Mr. Acockburn(09:18)

qingzuozhou对umlchina说: then we can read the talk words while we are talking with Mr. Acockburn(09:19)

xkfy对umlchina说: we need inform more people,i'll post something on our BBS(09:19)

fuzhong对大家说: Can you speak chinese?(09:21)

qingzuozhou对umlchina说: yes, xkfy is right . you should post the ad. on some popular website(09:21)

fuzhong对大家说: Mr Alistair Cockburn is here?(09:24)

qingzuozhou对umlchina说: I think you also should be a intepreter with some guys from China who speak Chinese and their English are not very good(09:24)

xkfy对umlchina说: i'd glad to be the intepreter,if umlchina agree(09:28)

qingzuozhou对xkfy说: good(09:29)

umlchina对xkfy说: thank you! It is great!(09:29)

nix00000对大家说: 一会专家来吗?(09:59)

qingzuozhou对busy_girl说: I feel that you are not very farmiliar with UML(10:00)

hdw1978对大家说: hi all!(10:00)

busy_girl对qingzuozhou说: why?(10:00)

macson对大家说: when will Alistair Cockburn come?(10:00)

nix00000微笑着对大家说: 今天是不是有一个OO专家来????????(10:00)

qingzuozhou对busy_girl说: only studied it from book and no enperiences with UML in projects(10:00)

chenf对大家说: 谁迟到了(10:00)

chenf对大家说: 专家还来吗?(10:01)

nix00000微笑着对大家说: 专家来了吧?(10:02)

busy_girl对qingzuozhou说: but i modeling a system with it(10:02)

umlchina对大家说: 谢谢大家光临,cockburn先生一会就到,刚才他搞错时间来早了,先离开一会(10:02)

nix00000微笑着对大家说: 一起学OO与UML吧。欢迎来Q 69559361(10:02)

acockburn对umlchina说: Hello again(10:02)

wangyuanjian微笑着对bucolic说: thanks.i have already sent out an email.(10:03)

qingzuozhou对busy_girl说: Hi, it's 10:00 in China. Mr. Acockburn here?(10:03)

macson对大家说: how to model a system with rotional?(10:03)

umlchina对大家说: 聊天颜色约定:(10:03)

nix00000微笑着对大家说: hello, acockburn(10:03)

qingzuozhou对大家说: Hi, it's 10:00 in China. Mr. Acockburn here??(10:03)

hdw1978对大家说: Hmm, what's the topic today?(10:04)

acockburn对umlchina说: Yes, He's here, good morning everyone(10:04)

fuzhong对大家说: Good moring.(10:04)

nix00000微笑着对acockburn说: Can you tell us how to build use cases in a project?(10:04)

nix00000微笑着对acockburn说: How to build it effectively(10:04)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: hi, it's liveliness at this room now!(10:04)

nix00000微笑着对acockburn说: thanks(10:04)

busy_girl很高兴地对大家说: 欢迎!啪啪啪啪啪啪啪……(10:05)

triol对acockburn说: welcome!(10:05)

umlchina对大家说: 提问及参与讨论:草原之蓝,嘉宾回答和主持人发言:正宗喜红,互相说话:绝对黑色(10:05)

acockburn对nix00000说: You mean you would like me to rewrite my book online during this chat session?(10:05)

umlchina对大家说: please talk in english!(10:05)

wangyuanjian微笑着对bucolic说: maybe on the way.(10:05)

macson对大家说: very slowly(10:06)

acockburn对nix00000说: How about we start with some simple questions, and find where the questions should go to..(10:06)

nix00000微笑着对acockburn说: :-), No, In my practice, I am often confused by the use case.(10:06)

nix00000微笑着对acockburn说: I don't know how to devide the whole function of business into effective use case.(10:06)

altob对大家说: hello(10:06)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: Can you tell us the differences between using UML for projects and products?(10:06)

fuzhong对大家说: Mr. acockburn ,how can I abstract the use cases and the actors .(10:06)

umlchina对acockburn说: I have a question: We make many mistake when using use cases, what is the most common mistake which we development teams make?(10:07)

acockburn对nix00000说: Topic:Use Cases: A use case is a text story describing what a system should do for a person(10:07)

nix00000微笑着对acockburn说: Ok, Can you tell us how long do you in this field.(10:07)

fuzhong对大家说: Mr. acockburn ,how can I abstract the use cases and the actors .((10:07)

acockburn对umlchina说: The most common mistake is to make them too detailed(10:07)

acockburn对umlchina说: People put the UI design into the use case (I'll write UC for use case)(10:08)

acockburn对umlchina说: ...and that is wrong. There isa UI designer who should read the UC and then design the UI fromthat.(10:08)

acockburn对umlchina说: If you put the UI design into the UC, then the use case is not REQUIREMENTS, it is a description of the screen.(10:08)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: how does the use cases be optimized?(10:09)

acockburn对umlchina说: A use case is sort of a story. I have never written one with more than 9 steps in it.(10:09)

hdw1978对大家说: but sometimes, user asked for 'beautiful UI'(10:09)

boss_ch对大家说: any tools for UI design ?(10:09)

acockburn对umlchina说: If you have more than 9 steps, then either the user iterface design is showing up or the steps are too detailed.(10:09)

acockburn对umlchina说: I find that almost every company I visit has long, detailed, boring use caess.(10:10)

xkfy对大家说: something is wrong?(10:10)

acockburn对hdw1978说: Right. "Beautiful UI" - Ask yourself - whose job is that?(10:10)

acockburn对hdw1978说: I s that the job of the person writing the *behavioral requirements* for the system, ...(10:11)

hdw1978对acockburn说: So, you mean the UC is someway the function module?(10:11)

acockburn对hdw1978说: ...or is that the job of a person who read a short description of what the system must "do", and who then designs a beautiful UI design.(10:11)

acockburn对hdw1978说: ...the point is, that UI design is "design". use cases are for "requirements"(10:11)

nix00000微笑着对acockburn说: How to devide the big use case, what is the idea?(10:11)

acockburn对hdw1978说: ...don't put design into the requirements. keep the requirements for only what "must" be there.(10:12)

acockburn对hdw1978说: A use case is like a function module, but *as seen from the user's side*(10:12)

fuzhong对大家说: Yes.(10:12)

acockburn对hdw1978说: Ask: What is the user really trying to *accomplish*?(10:12)

hdw1978对acockburn说: don't you think the UI design must comply the require?(10:13)

bucolic对acockburn说: how many uses in a system is appropriate?(10:13)

acockburn对hdw1978说: Write one use case to show a user using the system to accomplish something relevant and important to them.(10:13)

smilingleo对acockburn说: when the UC was done , what step will be the next?(10:13)

acockburn对hdw1978说: Therefore, the name of the use case must be a VERB phrase, saying what someone wants to accomplish.(10:13)

hdw1978对acockburn说: use the UC to construct a 'black-box' ?(10:13)

acockburn对hdw1978说: Yes, let's stay on this topic for a bit, it is a good one. the UI design must comply withthe re(10:14)

acockburn对hdw1978说: The distinction I wish to pass along is the distinction between Requirements and Design.(10:14)

nix00000微笑着对acockburn说: Mr. burn, I think if you can give a sample, that we can understand well.(10:14)

fuzhong对acockburn说: I know some knowledge,and can you(10:15)

acockburn对hdw1978说: Requirements means the system MUST have it.(10:15)

acockburn对hdw1978说: Design means the designers CHOOSE it.(10:15)

fuzhong对acockburn说: ensample ?(10:15)

acockburn对hdw1978说: It is a matter of who gets to make the decision.(10:15)

nix00000对acockburn说: How about the mine game in Windows?(10:15)

bucolic对acockburn说: sometime the user don't know the requirement clearly, when show them the UI, he will give some good suggestions.how to resolved it.(10:15)

fuzhong对acockburn说: I know some knowledge,and can you ensample ?(10:15)

acockburn对hdw1978说: (Yes, make the system a black box, and never refer to what its internal structure is)(10:15)

nix00000对acockburn说: If you have such a project to write, how do write the use case?(10:15)

acockburn对hdw1978说: Good questions, all.(10:16)

acockburn对hdw1978说: Let's back up... the way to find the answers to your questions is to ask this:(10:16)

kt133对大家说: But what the sequence diagram and collabration diagram should do?Mr acock?(10:16)

acockburn对hdw1978说: ...WHO gets to make the decision?(10:16)

umlchina对acockburn说: "Design means the designers CHOOSE it","Requirements means the system MUST have it",So great!!(10:16)

acockburn对hdw1978说: (Leave out UML, Rose, and all diagrams for a minute... if you don't know what you are trying to express, they can't help you)(10:16)

hdw1978对acockburn说: requirement is the job of analysis, so analysis can't mixed with design?(10:17)

acockburn对hdw1978说: Step 1: you ask some users and some sponsors (the people with the money) what they would like the system to do.(10:17)

acockburn对hdw1978说: Step 2. They tell you. Those are now Requirements.(10:17)

acockburn对hdw1978说: Step 3. But they don't really know the meaning of what they asked for.(10:17)

bucolic对acockburn说: sponsors is stalkhold?(10:18)

acockburn对hdw1978说: ...so you build some prototypes, or draw pictures on papers, and help them understand what their choices are allowed to be.(10:18)

ee96pyg对大家说: How can I get a full version of <writing effective use case>? Not draft in UMLChina.com!(10:18)

acockburn对hdw1978说: (Yes sponsor is stakeholder)(10:18)

acockburn对hdw1978说: Step 2-3 repeat, you and the user/sponsor go back and forth deciding what the system should do.(10:19)

bucolic对acockburn说: if I build some prototypes, it means I will begin a UI design?(10:19)

acockburn对hdw1978说: Step 4. OK, for some portion of the requirements, you and they finally are in agreement as to what the system should do.(10:19)

nix00000对acockburn说: Your text is like the book said, BUT, can you give us a detail sample? Mr, burn.(10:19)

acockburn对hdw1978说: ...Now two types of designers get started working. The UI designer and the program designer.(10:20)

acockburn对hdw1978说: Step 4A. The UI designer works out an easy-to-learn, fast-to-use UI design that the users can accept and use.(10:20)

bucolic对acockburn说: then should I keep the UI confirmed by customer?or just the requirement?(10:20)

fuzhong对acockburn说: I want to do in some projects with you,so I think I will learn muck.(10:20)

hdw1978对acockburn说: but, during prototype building, some design(may be small) have been made!(10:21)

busy_girl很高兴地对acockburn说: What is the arm of modeling?is requirement or code?(10:21)

acockburn对hdw1978说: Step 4B. The program designer starts working on the internal structure of the program.(10:21)

acockburn对hdw1978说: (If my text now is just like the book, then you will know that there are many examples in the book, and I can ask you to read those)(10:21)

smilingleo对acockburn说: You mean the programmer can start working at once, when the prototype was completed just now?(10:21)

nix00000对ee96pyg说: 什么意思?(10:22)

acockburn对bucolic说: Yes, doing prototypes IS doing UI design. and there is nothing wrong with doing it with the users(10:22)

acockburn对bucolic说: ...or showing them to the users and learning what they like and don't like.(10:22)

acockburn对bucolic说: ...They also get to finally accept or reject that design, since they are going to use it.(10:23)

acockburn对bucolic说: ...Some friends of mine say that "acceptance tests" are the final requirements!(10:23)

smilingleo对acockburn说: If so , what time to do with detail design?(10:23)

acockburn对bucolic说: Back to use cases, for a moment... they record the UI-independent description of what the system must do, so the UI design(10:24)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: what's the standards for fihishing a UC? ?(10:24)

bucolic对acockburn说: if I get the correct requirement with ptototypes, how I deal with the prototypes?(10:24)

acockburn对bucolic说: ...can change, even while the descirption of what the system must do stays constant.(10:24)

bucolic对acockburn说: abandon it? or reuse it in the next design?(10:24)

acockburn对bucolic说: I like to do everything concurrently.(10:25)

acockburn对bucolic说: First, enough requirements to understand what the users are aiming at.(10:26)

acockburn对bucolic说: Then some paper prototyping, or programming prototyping, so give them and me some feedback ...(10:26)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: how can you evaluate a good UC or bad UC?(10:26)

se_cn对acockburn说: hello(10:26)

acockburn对bucolic说: ... as to what they just asked for, so see if that's what they want.(10:26)

bucolic对acockburn说: acceptance tests, it means I have implemented the requirements? then customer make a acceptance test(10:26)

acockburn对bucolic说: At that point, we have done some requirements, some UI design, some program design.(10:26)

acockburn对bucolic说: Once the users are happy, both the UI designer and the programmer have a lot of work to do...(10:27)

acockburn对bucolic说: ... so the user can move onto specifying another part of the system with another pair of people.(10:27)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: I see. But I know many UCs is not useful for Design. how can we avoid that?(10:28)

acockburn对bucolic说: Detailed design happens once the program designer gets serious about making the design work.(10:28)

acockburn对bucolic说: You can either throw the prototypes away - if they were no good, or keep them, if they are good.(10:28)

acockburn对bucolic说: A use case is finished in one of two ways, depending on a small project.(10:28)

acockburn对bucolic说: For a small, local project, it is finished - no matter how messy it is - when everyone understands what it is trying to express.(10:29)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: about the detail level for a UC, can you give me a suggestion?(10:29)

fuzhong对acockburn说: When you think about the OO,you do not think about the programing language?Sorry,i'm pool in English.(10:29)

acockburn对bucolic说: On a large, complicated project (military, some financial instutions), it is finished when(10:29)

kt133对acockburn说: what the sequence diagram should do properly?And not too detail?(10:29)

acockburn对bucolic说: A) the list of use case names list all the goals the users have(10:29)

bucolic对acockburn说: if separate the UI designer and system designer ,how do they work it smoothly?(10:29)

acockburn对bucolic说: B) each use case captures all the error conditions that can arise during its operation.(10:30)

fuzhong对acockburn说: If someone is not skill in program language,can he design with OO?(10:30)

bucolic对acockburn说: the list inculde the stakeholder's requests?(10:30)

acockburn对bucolic说: You need as many use cases as there are desires the users have for the system. Exactly that many.(10:30)

acockburn对bucolic说: How many is that? Well, different for different systems. 20 or 70 is OK. I worked on one with 200.(10:31)

acockburn对bucolic说: I know people who have worked on some systems with 1,000 (yikes!)(10:31)

ee96pyg对大家说: Can you tell me some keywords about the evolution of method to capture system?(10:31)

bucolic对acockburn说: yeah ,in fact , the error condition can be list completly.(10:31)

ee96pyg对acockburn说: : Can you tell me some keywords about the evolution of method to capture system(10:32)

bucolic对acockburn说: sorry can't list(10:32)

acockburn对fuzhong说: Let's leave use cases for a little while. You have the book online there.(10:32)

rjcludy对acockburn说: Can you tell me how to juge the user case's granularity is good? thank you.(10:32)

nix00000对acockburn说: You mean that We should finish a use case and then begin another?(10:32)

acockburn对fuzhong说: TOPIC, OO DESIGN: It is actually hard to design without knowing the OO language.(10:32)

nix00000对acockburn说: You mean that We should finish a use case and then begin another?((10:33)

acockburn对fuzhong说: I program in Smalltalk, and some amount in C++, and not much in Java, and not at all in CLOS.(10:33)

unlchina对大家说: finish the meeting, everyone(10:33)

fuzhong对acockburn说: Why?(10:33)

umlchina对大家说: unlchina is not umlchina, please(10:33)

bucolic对acockburn说: yeah, the use cases's amount is relative with the code of line?(10:33)

acockburn对fuzhong说: My can design a good Smalltalk design, a medium C++ design, a mediocre Java design and a crummy CLOS design.(10:33)

acockburn对fuzhong说: It is like building a building with different materials.(10:34)

acockburn对fuzhong说: If you know how to work with bricks or with concrete and steel.(10:34)

nix00000对acockburn说: Please answer my question.(10:34)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: if I develop a software product, the requirment is from myself or my knowledge. at this situation, how about the UC?(10:34)

acockburn对fuzhong说: The shapes of buildings you design with the different materials is very different.(10:34)

hacker_jiang对大家说: why does nobody speak?(10:35)

am2000对大家说: ??(10:35)

xkfy对acockburn说: can you comment at the project management in the ERP(10:35)

hdw1978对acockburn说: so one must master many language to deal with all kinds of projects?(10:35)

fuzhong对acockburn说: The shapes of buildings you design with the different materials is very different??(10:35)

fuzhong对acockburn说: What is the materials ?(10:36)

acockburn对nix00000说: NIX - we spent a lot of time on use cases.... now let's talk about design for a bit.(10:36)

bucolic对acockburn说: and the size of building? I means if smalltalk can make a huge system, but other language can't?(10:36)

kt133对acockburn说: but how to use uml to design the project using jsp,php...these b/s ?(10:36)

acockburn对fuzhong说: Buildings... please look around your city. Some buildings are brick, some wood, some concrete, steel and glass.(10:37)

acockburn对fuzhong说: Their shapes are quite different.(10:37)

fuzhong对acockburn说: I see.(10:37)

nix00000对acockburn说: Ok, go on, I am just watching.(10:37)

bucolic对acockburn说: or if can builder , but it's not as robust as smalltalk?(10:37)

dyfjt微笑着对acockburn说: I am a beginner of UML.I do not know how and when to do from analysis to design.what should i do?Can you help me?i see my question is very fool,but i need..(10:37)

acockburn对fuzhong说: In fact the very possibility of what shape building you can build depends very much on what material you choose to use.(10:37)

acockburn对fuzhong说: Similarly, scuptors use different materials: clay, stone, others.(10:38)

hdw1978对acockburn说: I think java is the material that can build everything(10:38)

acockburn对fuzhong说: When someone decides to work from a block of marble, they must be very careful to arrange the weight and thickness carefully,(10:38)

ee96pyg对acockburn说: I want to know which fields the ideas of use case have come from.(10:38)

acockburn对fuzhong说: so that the piece holds together.(10:38)

bucolic对acockburn说: if I use a robust meterial, the building will be robust. and programing?(10:38)

fuzhong对acockburn说: design can ignore language?(10:39)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: when the initial design is finished, progrmmers begin to code for it. but programmers find many unfitting in design. how can I do for that?(10:39)

acockburn对fuzhong说: When someone builds a metal armature or mesh, and then adds clay to it, they can make many changes very fast, and create completely different shapes with it.(10:39)

bucolic对acockburn说: I means diffenent program language(10:39)

acockburn对fuzhong说: OK, back to software.(10:39)

acockburn对fuzhong说: C++ is a brittle material, like stone.(10:39)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: changed my design or ask programmers change his mind?(10:39)

acockburn对fuzhong说: Your class hierarchy has to be carefully desgned. You cannot change it easily.(10:40)

acockburn对fuzhong说: There are particular inheritance rules.(10:40)

acockburn对fuzhong说: The result is a particular sort of design, very common across C++ programs.(10:40)

acockburn对fuzhong说: Smalltalk, on the other hand, is like clay - very easy to change.(10:40)

bucolic对acockburn说: which language do you perfer? smalltalk?(10:40)

acockburn对fuzhong说: People who write in Smalltalk changes their designs all the time.(10:40)

acockburn对fuzhong说: Also, there are few rules about the inheritance hierarchy, so the structure is different.(10:41)

acockburn对fuzhong说: Java is a combination of Smalltalk and C++, so the design shape is somewhere in between(10:41)

acockburn对fuzhong说: CLOS has even looser rules that Smalltalk. and so on.(10:41)

acockburn对fuzhong说: This is the long answer to your questions, about "Can someone who doesn't know the language do an OO design?"(10:42)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: different language need different design? for example C++ and Java?(10:42)

xiang2ky微笑着对acockburn说: so what about c#?(10:42)

rjcludy对acockburn说: Can u tell me how to juge the user case's granularity is best? thank you very much.(10:42)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Good question. All designs have mistakes in them.(10:42)

umlchina对acockburn说: In a visual modeling tool, such as Rational Rose, we can not put the system boundary box on the use-case diagram. system boundary is totally missing from the diagram. Is(10:43)

umlchina对acockburn说: it a right choice?(10:43)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: tell us something about that(10:43)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: If you set up your project team so that a master "designer" makes all the decisions, and a programmer "only" programs them, then...(10:43)

fuzhong对acockburn说: Thanks.(10:43)

rick1126对大家说: hi, first come here(10:43)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: ...the programmer will discover the designer's mistake, but not be able to fix them.(10:43)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: For that reason, I prefer to have each person responsible for their own design AND programmintg.(10:44)

bucolic对acockburn说: it means designer should do some programing?(10:44)

zwweric微笑着对大家说: Could you say something about testing?About Auto-Testing?I'm sorry.My english is pool!(10:45)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: then one have two or more role(10:45)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Then, when the programmer finds the design mistake he(she) simply fixes it.(10:45)

bucolic对acockburn说: but how to assure the design of different person work smoothly(10:45)

品雪对acockburn说: would you like tell me why you disagree rational method so much?(10:45)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Yes, it means the designer should do some programming. I have never worked on a project which had a pure "designer" who did not program.(10:45)

dystudy对大家说: How to talk to with uers,I feel trouble when i talk to wiht user(10:45)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: but that is not accord with the requirement of CMM(10:45)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: I have heard about such projects, but I have not heard good news about such projects.(10:46)

fuzhong对umlchina说: 请你帮忙.有个问题我翻译不出:就是国外在10年或者20年前或者更长时间,软件行业是种什么状况?(10:46)

xkfy对acockburn说: but we need the master(10:46)

bucolic对acockburn说: in fact in a big system it's impossible one people to finish it.(10:46)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: There are just too many strange mistakes to make and it takes the programmer too long to explain them to the designer.(10:46)

umlchina对acockburn说: In a modeling tool such as Rational Rose, we can't put the system boundary box on a use-case diagram. system boundary is missing from the diagram. Is it a right choice?(10:46)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: yes. when diffrenet role for diffrenent people, it's hard to control for the project.(10:47)

bucolic对acockburn说: maybe design and program with same person is a method of XP?(10:47)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: What we do with senior designer/programmers, is give them the hardest part of teh system to design, and have them check the work of teh junior designer/programmers.(10:47)

fuzhong对umlchina说: 比如软件开发过程?(10:47)

dyfjt微笑着对acockburn说: as a beginner,need i learn UML with RUP??(10:47)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: but many management ask that!(10:47)

dystudy对acockburn说: How to talk to with uers,I feel trouble when i talk to wiht user(10:47)

品雪对umlchina说: I think you just can do that. Try to customize your toolbar(10:47)

fuzhong对umlchina说: 呵呵,试试.(10:47)

dyfjt微笑着对acockburn说: can you help me ?(10:48)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: And then give the junior designer/programmers smaller,simpler pieces of the system to design and program.(10:48)

zwweric微笑着对acockburn说: could you say something about Rational Robot?(10:48)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: I think you are very right.(10:48)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Yes, I disagree with the CMM quite a bit (and with the use of UML, too :-)(10:48)

bucolic对acockburn说: samller ,simpler pieces, piece can relative with use case , 1 by 1?(10:49)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: So there ought to be quite a topic there!(10:49)

nix00000对acockburn说: How to cooperate each other?(10:49)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: I have the thought that programming is a skill and a craft, like any other... sewing (tailoring), building, painting, woodworking...(10:50)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: when I join project , I often be confused by some standards such as CMM/ISO9001(10:50)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: The successful project teams I visit are built around the skills of the individuals,and their teamwork(10:50)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: If you don't have good enough skills on the team, no amount of CMM process or UML modeling will save the project.(10:50)

bucolic对acockburn说: with psp and tsp to build a good team?(10:51)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: On the other hand, if the people do have the skills, then they need only a tiny bit of process and UML modeling.(10:51)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Both process and modeling are useful... but best in small quantities.(10:51)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Therefore, I don't object to the UML notation... but I do object when managers think that they can replace program design with just teh UML model.(10:52)

fuzhong对acockburn说: I have another question.Why The SA(Structure Analyse ) past and OO now come into being on broad not in Chinese?(10:52)

bucolic对acockburn说: modeling is served with implement , if you have good implement, no need for moduling?(10:52)

fuzhong对acockburn说: This is about the Software Condition.(10:52)

jambol对acockburn说: Is it necessary that software engineer become domain expert when designs and analyse?(10:53)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: I see, your points help me a lot(10:53)

ee96pyg对acockburn说: Please introduce some characters of sucessful teams you feel.(10:53)

acockburn对ee96pyg说: Hi, could you explain that question about SA and OO a bit more?(10:53)

nix00000对acockburn说: You mean everyone in the team should have enough skills about modeling?(10:53)

acockburn对ee96pyg说: OK,NEW TOPIC: Characters on successful team.(10:53)

ee96pyg对acockburn说: oo have memory then have life(10:54)

ee96pyg对acockburn说: for what?(10:54)

ee96pyg对acockburn说: SA for what?(10:54)

acockburn对ee96pyg说: #1. If you don't have someone who has succeeded with some project before, it is much harder to succeed with this project.(10:55)

nix00000对acockburn说: They all have good skills!!!(10:55)

品雪对acockburn说: ... tehn, would you like introduce your methodology for us?(10:55)

bucolic对acockburn说: experence is very important?(10:55)

acockburn对ee96pyg说: A person who has succeeded before remembers how they got around the problems last time.(10:55)

acockburn对ee96pyg说: So this is a most important person to have on the team.(10:55)

fuzhong对acockburn说: I think technology has be there now and then,Why they be found on broad.I says this ,because I want to know How can I do so that I can stand ahead.(10:56)

acockburn对ee96pyg说: For small projects, this person is usually the Team Lead, does the most difficult part of the design,(10:56)

hdw1978对大家说: what if there are two person succeeded but have different experience?(10:56)

acockburn对ee96pyg说: ...watches the quality of work of the otherpeople, negotiates with the users,(10:56)

bucolic对acockburn说: in fact in china we are short of those important persons(10:56)

acockburn对ee96pyg说: ... builds the schedules... and doesn't get much sleep.(10:56)

acockburn对ee96pyg说: If you have two of these people, then the load is not so terrible. Otherwise this person works 60-90 hours each week.(10:57)

ee96pyg对ee96pyg说: thanks, i am listening(10:57)

acockburn对ee96pyg说: If you have such a person, then you give him(her) a few medium or beginning people to help.(10:57)

acockburn对ee96pyg说: Notice the skills development.(10:57)

bucolic对acockburn说: sometime if one has to management the project, he will lost the time to make design, how to resolve?(10:57)

charles_y对acockburn说: How we can still get start when we get no person who has succeded before ,or if has experience before?(10:57)

acockburn对ee96pyg说: If you have a smart, inexperienced person, this person will learn fast, and soon(10:58)

acockburn对ee96pyg说: become a medum-experienced person and be quite helpful.(10:58)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: I have another question . how to use OO technology to relace the old system. for example, I have a system developed before. now I want to upgrade to new platform with OO(10:58)

acockburn对ee96pyg说: If you are unlucky, and no one is experienced, then the smartest or fastest person will grow the fastest and become the technical leader.(10:58)

acockburn对ee96pyg说: You will have to develop such a person.(10:59)

acockburn对ee96pyg说: Question: how to reduce the load on the Team Lead?... answer, assign as many other things to other people as possible.(10:59)

hdw1978对大家说: A team without a leader will doomed to fail?(10:59)

acockburn对ee96pyg说: Find a project manager to watch schedules, inter-person dependencies, money, furniture.(11:00)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: if rewrite all code , the cost is too high. if not , how reuse the old results?(11:00)

acockburn对ee96pyg说: Assign pieces of work to people who are just learning... even if they are 3 times as slow, sometimes the project will still go better.(11:00)

fuzhong对acockburn说: Some books says that the interest is very important in software,how the conditions on broad,and how do they work?I want to talk about Project Manage.(11:00)

bucolic对acockburn说: it means the team leader is the same person as project manager?(11:01)

acockburn对hdw1978说: If there is no experienced person, then you really are relying on the inexperienced people to invent their way to success.(11:01)

acockburn对hdw1978说: This does happen, but not as often as the opposite... that the people just go around and around, without producing something.(11:02)

bucolic对acockburn说: can follow the way recorded in the book?(11:02)

acockburn对hdw1978说: This is the hazard of too much modeling... you can happily model for 6 months, and never know that the design won't work.(11:02)

acockburn对hdw1978说: Better to build a small piece right away, and find if it will or won't work.(11:02)

ee96pyg对acockburn说: Thank you very much(11:02)

acockburn对bucolic说: My book Surviving Object Oriented Project tells of what I learned by interviewing about 20 project teams,(11:03)

acockburn对bucolic说: and then applying what they said on a few projects of my own.(11:03)

bucolic对acockburn说: i think you are perfer to have prototype very much.(11:03)

acockburn对bucolic说: The ideas in that book really work - they were told to me by successful teams, I tried them myself.(11:04)

acockburn对bucolic说: "Prototype" is a word I stay away from.(11:04)

bucolic对acockburn说: can I purchase this book?(11:04)

acockburn对bucolic说: The point is not to "prototype", but to get "feedback"(11:04)

charles_y对acockburn说: where to find your book,is it on stock now?(11:04)

acockburn对bucolic说: The problem with the word "prototype"is that nobody knows if it should be thrown away or not(11:05)

acockburn对bucolic说: I generally don't like throwaway prototypes, unless they are made out of paper.(11:05)

acockburn对bucolic说: Because it if is made with a programming language, the sponsors won't let you throw it away!(11:05)

rjcludy对acockburn说: Can you tell me how to juge the user case's granularity is best?? thank you very much!(11:05)

acockburn对bucolic说: So I almost never use the word prototype.(11:06)

bucolic对acockburn说: oh, then your "prototype" can change to product.(11:06)

acockburn对bucolic说: Insted, build a very small piece of the system.(11:06)

acockburn对bucolic说: Build it correctly, full production strength.(11:06)

charles_y对acockburn说: The most confusing problem is where to start ?(11:06)

acockburn对bucolic说: Now it is not a prototype. It is an "increment", a piece of the final system.(11:06)

acockburn对bucolic说: You add onto the increment, so that you throw away (waste) very little.(11:07)

fuzhong对acockburn说: should you tell me your email? communion is not ended today.(11:07)

bucolic对acockburn说: oh, our problem is the prototype is uncorrect, then we have to abandon it.(11:07)

acockburn对bucolic说: Incremental growth is better than throwaway prototyping (except when the prototype is made of paper)(11:07)

acockburn对bucolic说: Both provide the really important thing; feedback.(11:08)

acockburn对charles_y说: CHARLES_Y: nice question.(11:08)

bucolic对acockburn说: when I got the feedback , should I redesign some use case or just change those implement?(11:08)

acockburn对charles_y说: Where to start?(11:09)

acockburn对charles_y说: The 3 criteria for starting:(11:09)

acockburn对charles_y说: - it should provide (a tiny amount of) value to the users.(11:09)

acockburn对charles_y说: - it should be possible to build in 2 months.(11:09)

acockburn对charles_y说: - it should be quite easy.(11:10)

acockburn对charles_y说: If you build something, small, easy, a little bit useful, in 2 months,(11:10)

acockburn对charles_y说: then your users and sponsors will know you are doing them some good,(11:10)

acockburn对charles_y说: and the team will have practice actually producing a product.(11:11)

acockburn对charles_y说: Both of those are extremely important.(11:11)

bucolic对acockburn说: how do you think of the method of xp?(11:11)

acockburn对charles_y说: Once you have something small and useful, you should see if you can find the worst problem facing you,(11:11)

acockburn对charles_y说: and see if you can conquer it. You get another 2 months.(11:11)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: why in slient?(11:11)

acockburn对charles_y说: The way to find what to build is to build two lists:(11:12)

acockburn对charles_y说: What the user wants, and what technologies are going to be used.(11:12)

acockburn对charles_y说: You then choose the easiest thing that will show some value, and the hardest thing, that will kill your project.(11:13)

acockburn对charles_y说: Does that help you with your question?(11:13)

acockburn对bucolic说: XP: You will notice that XP does all these things I say.(11:13)

charles_y对acockburn说: yes ,thank you ,but how if you have no easy project?(11:13)

acockburn对bucolic说: So I think XP is very good, except that you must also produce some documentation,(11:14)

acockburn对bucolic说: ... either along the way or after.(11:14)

bucolic对acockburn说: yeah, I found it, so I ask this question.(11:14)

acockburn对bucolic说: But if you produce no documentation, then the project will be in trouble within 6 months of it being delivered.(11:14)

bucolic对acockburn说: en, but to develop the big project , xp can't work.(11:14)

acockburn对charles_y说: Please help me - what do you mean if you have no easy project?(11:15)

fuzhong对acockburn说: documentation means communication?(11:15)

charles_y对acockburn说: can you tell me where to buy the book you mentioned?(11:15)

acockburn对bucolic说: Bucolic: please tell me what you mean by "big" project, and why XP can't work for it?(11:15)

charles_y对acockburn说: thanks ,i understand what you mean now(11:15)

bucolic对acockburn说: a big program , we perfer to use rup.(11:16)

品雪对acockburn说: argee 2 month and easy(11:16)

charles_y对acockburn说: i think you mean i should find a easy part,and work on it(11:16)

acockburn对charles_y说: I don't live in Beijing, so I can't say where to buty the book. Ask UMLCHINA, who is translatingthe book into Chinese(11:16)

fuzhong对acockburn说: or documentation means communication and design both?(11:16)

acockburn对charles_y说: Yesthat it what I mean ('i think you mean i should find a easy part,and work on it")(11:17)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: I have a software based on mainfram and plant to replant to J2ee. would you give me some suggestiuons?(11:17)

bucolic对acockburn说: if a project team has more than 10, it's not effective with xp, it's my thought.(11:17)

bucolic对acockburn说: more than 10 members(11:18)

acockburn对fuzhong说: In this case, documentation means something you can store, and retrieve 6 months later. Can be on paper or online.(11:18)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: it is a very large system. where do I start from?(11:18)

acockburn对bucolic说: Right. XP only works with up to 12 developers sitting at 6 workstations in 1 room.(11:18)

acockburn对bucolic说: But you have to take into account, those 12 programmers will probably produce the same amount of system as 35 programmers(11:19)

bucolic对acockburn说: is it enoutg to document only with uml?(11:19)

acockburn对bucolic说: ...who are not sitting in the same room and are trying to use RUP and UML.(11:19)

acockburn对bucolic说: So "big" is a bit of a difficult word with XP.(11:19)

acockburn对bucolic说: The project I visited, 10 programmers did in one year what 26 had failed to do the previous year.(11:20)

bucolic对acockburn说: enough. sorry type mistaken(11:20)

acockburn对bucolic说: So be careful, there are "big" problems and there are "big" teams.(11:20)

hacker_jiang对acockburn说: How to manage a systems documentation?(11:20)

acockburn对bucolic说: "big" teams often are so inefficient that a small team working efficiently can do the same work.(11:20)

acockburn对bucolic说: However, your point is still true... at some point there will be a system that 12 XP people in a room cannot build.(11:21)

acockburn对bucolic说: At that point, one must split the team, use some XP practices, replace other ones...(11:21)

bucolic对acockburn说: you are right, but maybe the schedual or the size of project, we have to use more people.(11:21)

acockburn对bucolic说: .. perhaps teh resul is XP, perhaps not. I think it will not be.(11:21)

acockburn对bucolic说: ... but many of the XP practices can still be useful along the way.(11:22)

bucolic对acockburn说: you are right.(11:22)

acockburn对bucolic说: I have never seen it sufficient to document only with UML(11:22)

acockburn对bucolic说: There are things people want to "say" to each other, that they want to say in ordinary language.(11:23)

bucolic对acockburn说: if we follow the rule of rup, its documents are enough?(11:23)

acockburn对bucolic说: ... such as "I'm really want to make this look a lot like a pizza delivery system, so that's why my design looks the way it does."(11:23)

bucolic对acockburn说: you mean sometime we shouldn't follow a template to make a document?(11:24)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: I don't know enough about J2EE to be useful, sorry.(11:24)

bucolic对acockburn说: just record what I should record.(11:24)

acockburn对bucolic说: OK NEW TOPIC: DOCUMENTATION(11:24)

umlchina对acockburn说: What is your opionion about some use cases like "Create ***", "read ***", "update ***", "Delete ***"(11:25)

acockburn对bucolic说: This is a difficult topic, and I find it tiring, but I'll do what I can(11:25)

acockburn对bucolic说: RUP probably permits all and every kind of documentation known to Man (does it include videotapes? probably)(11:25)

bucolic对acockburn说: you know in rup, it difine some document template.(11:25)

fuzhong对acockburn说: DOCUMENTATION is the kernel,all in software?(11:26)

bucolic对acockburn说: sometimes I want to follow it to make document.(11:26)

acockburn对umlchina说: (A little more on use cases: Create/Retrieve/Update/Delete use cases CRUD use cases)(11:26)

bucolic对acockburn说: but I find some of them are not useful.(11:26)

gigix对大家说: Hello to everybody.(11:26)

acockburn对umlchina说: (I try to write all four in one use case, to reduce the number of use cases we have to track.(11:26)

acockburn对umlchina说: (one of my friends really dislikes that I do that. She likes to have them all separate,(11:27)

gigix对大家说: How do you do? Mr. Cockburn.(11:27)

acockburn对umlchina说: (so that she can track the development, and security issues for each separately(11:27)

acockburn对umlchina说: (each of us thinks the other person is doing it wrong :-)(11:28)

dengzh对大家说: Hello Everyone(11:28)

acockburn对umlchina说: (but that's OK, because we both know how to make projects successful in the end!)(11:28)

bucolic对acockburn说: another problem ,how to track the use case.(11:28)

acockburn对umlchina说: back to documentation.(11:28)

acockburn对umlchina说: RUP defines many templates. that is good.(11:28)

acockburn对umlchina说: But if you try to use them all, that is bad.(11:28)

acockburn对umlchina说: They give you a "library" of templates.(11:29)

acockburn对umlchina说: When you go the the library, you don't try to read all the books,(11:29)

bucolic对acockburn说: it means I should trim the document templates(11:29)

acockburn对umlchina说: When you go to the store to buy some legal forms, you don't buy all of them.(11:29)

acockburn对umlchina说: You read what you need to read, you buy what you need to buy.(11:29)

acockburn对umlchina说: The same with document templates.(11:30)

acockburn对umlchina说: You use the ones you need. You leave the others in teh RUP library.(11:30)

acockburn对umlchina说: Of course, you realize, we just came back to skill again.(11:30)

bucolic对acockburn说: i am afraid I think it needn't read or buy, but in fact it should read or buy(11:30)

acockburn对umlchina说: It takes some judgement and some practice to decide which ones you need.(11:30)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: as I know , there many documents no body see them again when the project finished. which should be ducomentized?(11:30)

acockburn对umlchina说: If you take too many, you slow down the project, without particularly doing it any good.(11:31)

acockburn对umlchina说: I prefer to take fewer, and let people decide they need more.(11:31)

acockburn对umlchina说: Most useful documentation seem to be the following:(11:31)

bucolic对acockburn说: if really need , then add?(11:31)

acockburn对umlchina说: UI - the flow and connection between screens (use a sort of state machine or statechart to show this)(11:32)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: many documents are produced by the software enginnering.(11:32)

umlchina对acockburn说: professor, your answer is not for me--just click the right person(11:32)

acockburn对umlchina说: Architecture: use components and their interactions. Add a sentence of text to each major component to show its purpose in life(11:32)

bucolic对acockburn说: you know now the project with web page is popular, can I use static web page to present the UI?(11:32)

acockburn对umlchina说: OO Design: the class diagram, and a few sample sequence charts.(11:33)

acockburn对umlchina说: not too many sequence charts, because they get out of date very quickly.(11:33)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: but many of them are no useful. on the other side, when I need maintenance the system , I also didn't find thing whic I need.(11:33)

acockburn对umlchina说: (using the web page - Yes use anything and everything that speeds your work and communicates with your readers)(11:34)

acockburn对umlchina说: Database: Database Schema, or entity-relationship-diagram.(11:34)

bucolic对acockburn说: sometimes I can get the operation of class from sequence charts.(11:34)

acockburn对umlchina说: Requirements: Use cases + required data formats crossing the system boundaries.(11:34)

acockburn对umlchina说: Architecture: Connections to other systems.(11:35)

acockburn对umlchina说: (correct - I like to design directly in sequence charts - they help me think through the behavior)(11:35)

acockburn对umlchina说: Architecture: there should be a short (1-5 pages) document of text and some drawings in which the architect or lead designer(11:36)

acockburn对umlchina说: ..."explains" in words how thesystem is structured and works.(11:36)

acockburn对umlchina说: ...These words fill in all the little gaps of expression that fall through the UML diagrams.(11:37)

bucolic对acockburn说: in general.if architecture should design by one person?(11:37)

acockburn对bucolic说: Sorry, Bucolic, I was answer your question all that time, ddidn't notice that my target address was naming UMLCHINA.(11:38)

acockburn对bucolic说: beg your pardon.(11:38)

acockburn对bucolic说: Most people say only one person, but i was on a 40person project, and we used three of us as an architecture team, and it worked fine.(11:39)

bucolic对acockburn说: sorry.(11:39)

acockburn对bucolic说: So I think it can be done.(11:39)

acockburn对大家说: OK, 20 minutes left. What is the next topic, or what topic do you want to return to?(11:41)

bucolic对acockburn说: any other's question?(11:41)

bucolic对acockburn说: can I ask the last question?(11:41)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: when I use UML express the requirement, should I throw away the old technology such as flow-chart, E-R digram etc?(11:41)

umlchina对acockburn说: In a modeling tool such as Rational Rose, we can't put the system boundary box on a use-case diagram. system boundary is missing from the diagram. Is it a right choice?(11:42)

acockburn对umlchina说: Interesting you say that about the use case diagram.(11:42)

nix00000对acockburn说: The detail design of UC.(11:42)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: tell the difference between UC and the old expressing methods for requirements(11:43)

acockburn对umlchina说: I didn't know that Rose doesn't show the system boundary.(11:43)

acockburn对umlchina说: Personally, I don't care, but my friend with whom I disagree about CRUD use cases(11:43)

acockburn对umlchina说: really gets upset when that boundary line isn't there (her name is Susan Lilly, maybe you saw her article(11:43)

acockburn对umlchina说: on 10 mistakes in writing use cases? that was one of them)(11:43)

ee96pyg对acockburn说: Can you talk about some keywords about evolution of use case?(11:44)

acockburn对umlchina说: I'm afraid to say anything too negative about Rose,(11:44)

umlchina对大家说: yes(11:44)

umlchina对acockburn说: yes(11:44)

acockburn对umlchina说: particularly since I don't specialize in CASE tools...(11:44)

acockburn对umlchina说: but in my travels, I have not heard anyone recommend Rose over any other tools.(11:44)

acockburn对umlchina说: I have, however, heard people recommend other tools over Rose,(11:45)

acockburn对umlchina说: and I have heard many complaints about Rose.(11:45)

acockburn对umlchina说: So take your chances.(11:45)

acockburn对umlchina说: These days, what i hear people saying is that Together/J is a good tool(11:45)

bucolic对acockburn说: I find it is difficult to convert analysis model to design model with rup, can you give me some suggestions?(11:45)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: tell us about other tools(11:45)

acockburn对umlchina说: and that it really permits you to move back and forth between the UML diagram and the code.(11:45)

umlchina对acockburn说: thanks!(11:45)

acockburn对umlchina说: To bothe umlchina and bucolic: you will find it revealing, in the context of these questions,(11:46)

acockburn对umlchina说: that I have *never* used Rational Rose.(11:46)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: Together/J's website URL?(11:46)

acockburn对umlchina说: Why not? Because I don't draw many UML diagrams.(11:46)

acockburn对umlchina说: I draw them on whiteboard (printiing whiteboards preferably)(11:47)

bucolic对acockburn说: www.togethersoft.com?(11:47)

acockburn对umlchina说: Those I do draw, I draw by hand, or in Visio, which is a pure drawing too,(11:47)

acockburn对umlchina说: very cheap and very easy to use, and it produces no code whatsoever.(11:47)

acockburn对umlchina说: Ever since 1992, up through and including 2000, I try the CASE tools briefly, n(11:47)

acockburn对umlchina说: and keep finding they waste our time.(11:48)

acockburn对umlchina说: Better to find a pure drawing tool and just draw.(11:48)

acockburn对umlchina说: That's why I perked up when I heard programmers telling me that Together/J actually works.(11:48)

acockburn对umlchina说: Of course I haven't triedit myself yet :-) so I don't really know.(11:49)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Other tools: printing whiteboards are great. Digital cameras are almost as good, and(11:49)

umlchina对acockburn说: NEVER USED RATIONAL ROSE--SO COOL!!!!!!!!(11:49)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: my friends tell me that the Pixid software (probably www.pixid.com) does a very good job of(11:50)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: cleaning up the picture so that you can really use it after wards.(11:50)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Other tools: configuration management / version control system is the first tool after the compiler that all my contacts recommend.(11:50)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: I think a Case tool should save analyst's time(11:50)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: otherwise, it's a bad tool(11:51)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Other tools: performance measuring tool(11:51)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Other tools: Lotus Notes is very good to hold use cases, and also the bug-reports database.(11:51)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: TOOLS you will notiice these tools:(11:52)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: 1. Compiler, performance tuning tool, helps a programmer make code.(11:52)

fuzhong对acockburn说: over?(11:52)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: 2. Configuration management tool: helps the team keep their code in sync.(11:52)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: 3. Lotus Notes: helps the team keep their non-code exchanges in sync.(11:53)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: 4.Visio: helps people draw pictures without trauma.(11:53)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: about case tools in detail?(11:54)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: 5. Final tool: Get yourself JUnit, or CppUnit, or VBUnit, and start making small regression tests for(11:54)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: small pieces of your code.(11:54)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: The people I talk to who once ever start writing little sets of tests for their code that are easy(11:54)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: to write and easy to run,(11:54)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Never give them up again.(11:54)

acockburn对xkfy说: Smartdraw? I don't know it - but just use any tool that works well.(11:55)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: thanks(11:56)

charles_y对acockburn说: can i ask the order to implement a OO project?(11:56)

charles_y对acockburn说: does it form a right steps:use case(including requirements),main abstraction,layer define,architecture mechnism define,class define,use case realization?(11:56)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: You will notice the complete absence of CASE tools in my tool list.(11:56)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: I interviewed project teams from 1991 to 2001, and i have only heard two teams say that the CASE tools helped them.(11:56)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: yes. why?(11:56)

adamli对acockburn说: Alistair, is this your first time chat with a group of software people in China?(11:57)

acockburn对qingzuozhou说: Ask: what do I want this tool to do for me? If the answer is "generate code", then probably the tool will be a waste of money.(11:57)

acockburn对adamli说: If it is some other answer, then one of teh other tools I mentioned will do the job.(11:57)

acockburn对adamli说: Hi, Adamli - yes my first time.(11:58)

acockburn对adamli说: I have absolutely no idea where you people are sitting, what your ages or backgrounds are, or anything.(11:58)

adamli对acockburn说: what's the reason you accept the invitation?(11:58)

acockburn对adamli说: All I can do is guess and what to type from the sequence of questions.(11:58)

acockburn对adamli说: Because umlchina asked, and I have never done it before :-)(11:59)

bucolic对acockburn说: Alistair, If I have some questions to ask you , can I send email to you ?(11:59)

acockburn对adamli说: If I had already done it a few times, then I might say I am too busy.(11:59)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: this is first time to me to hear such comment about case tools. very intersting. thank you(11:59)

acockburn对bucolic说: On sending me email:(11:59)

acockburn对bucolic说: I do try to answer email. But I am working very hard to finish my next book in the next 2 weeks,(12:00)

acockburn对bucolic说: So I will not answer any difficult or long questions.(12:00)

acockburn对bucolic说: in the next few weeks.(12:00)

acockburn对bucolic说: After that, I'll answer a few more.(12:00)

charles_y对acockburn说: can we have your email address,just the one you registered here?(12:01)

adamli对acockburn说: I am actually in U.S. I was working for ThoughtWorks.(12:01)

acockburn对bucolic说: Eventually, the questions will start to take up too much of my time, and I'll write that I can't answer any more questions.(12:01)

bucolic对acockburn说: thanks.(12:01)

umlchina对大家说: Thank you all, thank you professor cockburn, we had a nice morning here(12:01)

acockburn对adamli说: That's pretty funny. You know I spent some time there.(12:02)

acockburn对adamli说: How did you hear of this webcast?(12:02)

charles_y对acockburn说: thank you.(12:02)

adamli对acockburn说: I like your new book.(12:02)

acockburn对charles_y说: send email to acockburn@aol.com(12:02)

fuzhong对acockburn说: Thank you.(12:02)

acockburn对charles_y说: also, read all the articles on my web site:(12:02)

acockburn对charles_y说: http://members.aol.com/acockburn(12:02)

adamli对acockburn说: I visit this group and xpchina group a lot.(12:03)

acockburn对charles_y说: I put most of my articles up there. My next bookis already up there in complete form (although 3rd draft, not final copy)(12:03)

umlchina对大家说: ok. webcast is over. 大家可以留下来继续交流,也希望多提意见。(12:03)

adamli对acockburn说: I am trying to promote Xp and other Agile methods in China.(12:03)

charles_y对acockburn说: ok,thanks a lot(12:03)

acockburn对charles_y说: Also visit www.crystalmethodologies.org(12:03)

acockburn对charles_y说: there is a wiki server there, where we can continue the discussions.(12:04)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: It's happy to see you discuss on this chat room. I hope that I can see you again in the future. thank you(12:04)

acockburn对adamli说: Are you in Chicago?(12:04)

adamli对acockburn说: no, I am in San Francisco.(12:04)

acockburn对adamli说: send me your email (offline) and let's see when we'll be in the same place.(12:05)

adamli对acockburn说: Will you be interested to have your new book translated into Chinese?(12:05)

acockburn对umlchina说: OK TIME TO GO(12:05)

acockburn对umlchina说: It's time for me to go.(12:05)

acockburn对umlchina说: Thank you for the good questions. and for asking so many.(12:05)

acockburn对umlchina说: that made it easier.(12:06)

umlchina对acockburn说: OK! Good night! thanks again(12:06)

bucolic对大家说: thanks for your answers.(12:06)

acockburn对umlchina说: My fingers and forearms are vey tired.(12:06)

acockburn对umlchina说: Best wishes to all of you.(12:06)

acockburn对umlchina说: bye now.(12:06)

umlchina对acockburn说: Yes, two hours.....(12:06)

umlchina对acockburn说: bye(12:06)

charles_y对acockburn说: bye,a nice day(12:06)

qingzuozhou对acockburn说: it's kind of you really. bye(12:06)

 

 

 

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